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Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
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497
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Oct 13, 2006 7:23 AM
by: mdevivo
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Jul 19, 2006
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Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 27, 2006 11:14 PM
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Do a google search for "macbook random shutdown" and you'll find many people with similar problems reporting on various forums. At present, this issue has not been picked up by the mainstream PC news media. However, one should also note that only a fraction of those with problems are suffering this particular fault. A large number of other reasons must be ruled out before a MacBook owner should become convinced their machine is one which suffers this problem. Bad RAM, poorly seated RAM, improperly installed hard drive, corrupted OS, corrupted plists, bad batteries, bad chargers, corrupted PMU, and corrupted NVRAM all need to be ruled out first!
My own MacBook suffered the random sudden shutdown malady and eventually required complete replacement after a logic board replacement did not solve the issue. Some of the MacBooks appear to have a hardware problem which surfaces after a period of use. Many reported their problems starting after a month of ownership. Coincidentally, that also coincided with the release of 10.4.7, but most likely that is not at the root of the sudden, random, shutdown problem.
(However, 10.4.7 is strongly implicated in a separate MacBook problem - colored vertical lines during boot on some machines. That is probably a separate issue.)
Description of the Random, Sudden Shutdown Problem
MacBook suddenly shuts off to a completely powered down state seemingly at random. There are no kernel panic, mouse freezing, or other premonitory symptoms. The machine simply powers down suddenly. The screen goes black. The hard drive spins down and no sleep light illuminates. The machine simply turns itself off.
The shutdowns may occur on either battery or with AC adapter attached. Some owners report their MacBook is less prone to sudden shut down while on battery vs AC adapter. My own afflicted MacBook would suddenly shutdown on a fully charged battery or on either of two AC adapters.
The shutdowns occur with either 10.4.6 or 10.4.7 OS loaded. I went through several cycles of clean installs of the base 10.4.6 and the Intel Combo update to 10.4.7 before it became clear that it mattered not which OS was running. Another indicator that this is not an OS issue is that sudden shutdowns can occur in target mode and also when running just the Apple Hardware Test - which relies on minimal software to operate.
The shutdowns tend to grow more frequent once they begin. They may worsen to the point that a machine will not complete boot up before shutting down. It may take several power up presses to start the machine. Oddly enough, a machine that had difficulty starting up, may be easy to start up several minutes later. It may run for hours or minutes before another sudden shutdown. The frequency is low and random enough that is very difficult to demonstrate this fault to a service technician.
Some users are able to induce a sudden shutdown by running their CPU's at high load and thus heating up the machine. This is easily done by running the yes command in two Terminal windows. Some users report their MacBook is more prone to sudden shutdowns when their CPU is relatively cool. The bipolar reporting is confusing. There may be more than one type of sudden shutdown being reported. One due to CPU overheating and another due to another hardware problem which has yet to be elucidated.
Resetting of the PMU and PRAM MAY temporarily reduce the frequency of the sudden shutdowns, but the effect is temporary. Indeed, the effect may not even be real given the randomness of the shutdowns. None-the-less, one must perform PMU and PRAM resets to ensure that some corruption of those devices is not creating a reason for shutdowns. On my own MacBook, resetting PMU and PRAM (four chimes) did not prevent the random sudden shutdowns.
The sudden shutdowns occur with well seated stock RAM, replacement RAM, and reseated/replaced hard drives. Swapping out and testing both RAM and hard drive helps to eliminate those as the source of the problem. On my own machine, I exchanged the RAM and the hard drive to eliminate them as the cause. This made it considerably easier for the Apple genius to decide it was an internal problem.
In my case, a logic board replacement did indeed solve the fault, but several days later, sudden shutdowns began again. Presumably either the replacement board has the same weakness as the original or some other component of the machine was the actual reason for the sudden shutdowns. The former is quite likely because the machine was made stable for several days with a new logic board. At that point, I requested to be swapped to a new machine and the Apple Store manager wisely decided to help out his customer. For that I am most grateful. However, it is unlikely that the majority of people will have their machines swapped out, but instead repaired.
At this time, no official statement regarding cause for or acknowledgment of the MacBook's sudden random shutdown problem has been made. Because the underlying cause has not been revealed, it is impossible to know that a logic board replacement will permanently solve the problem or merely result in the same fault recurring later on the replacement board. Of course, we do not know if it actually is a logic board flaw.
My advice to MacBook owners whose machines develop the sudden random shutdown symptoms are to...
1. Get your data backed up immediately. The machine will likely suffer more and more frequent shutdown events.
2. Revert to stock RAM and hard drive if you have installed after-market replacements. You must do this and see if the shutdowns continue to occur. Otherwise, the first thing blamed will be your RAM and hard drive.
3a. Perform a PMU reset, by shutting down the MacBook. Removing the battery. Disconnect the AC Adapter. Then, press the power button for five seconds. The reinstall the battery and mains adapter. Restart the machine.
3b. Reset PRAM by holding option-command-P-R keys down during startup until you hear the chime at least three or four times.
Resetting the PMU and PRAM are standard procedures you'll otherwise be asked to perform to diagnose your machine.
4. Do a CLEAN install of the OSX if you wish to totally eliminate a bad OS install as the problem. This will destroy all your data. Alternatively, an archive and install will be helpful without totally destroying your data, but that will not let you exonerate your system files and settings. An alternative is to run Apple's hardware test utility which is found on your OS installation disc. However, an extended hardware test is needed because the shutdown flaw may take hours to surface.
Note: If your MacBook has become so "narcoleptic" that it cannot even complete a boot up sequence, try holding the power button down until you hear a loud beep. That may allow an otherwise balky machine to start.
Once you have done the above, and are still seeing random sudden shutdowns, you have largely done the preliminary footwork that you'll need to prove whether your MacBook has this particular problem and not something more common. Then, call AppleCare or visit your Apple Genius to have the machine repaired or replaced. Hopefully, the root cause of this problem will be discovered, disclosed, repaired and prevented. For now, it appears only a fraction of the MacBooks are suffering this fault, but the machine population is still young. Overall, the MacBook is perhaps the finest laptop I've bought from Apple. It will be nice to trust the machine to not lose my work.
BTW - resetting PMU may induce a separate 10.4.7 related bug which results in your MacBook exhibiting a white screen with progressively more numerous vertical color lines during startup. This appears to be fixable by resetting PRAM and then temporarily changing display resolution to something other than the current setting and then back.
macbook
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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Posts:
14
Registered:
Jul 27, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 2:16 AM
in response to: guykuo
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nice job!
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Posts:
1
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Aug 5, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Aug 5, 2006 5:46 AM
in response to: xechvol
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Thanks very much for the detail anaysis for this common issue.
I had the same issue only 2 weeks after I bought the macbook.
One of my colleague also starts having this problem now.
Therefore, I believe that this is a common issue for Macbook. Some people even reported that after the logic board was replaced, the same problem happened again some time later.
Therefore, if the problem can't be solved, shall we start considering refunding our money back. I am not paying money for such frustrating suffering. And I think it is MAC's responsibility to fix this problem, if not, they are supposed to refund the money to the customers, not to mention other compensation for all the inconvinience caused, if MAC is repsonsible and wants to keep its brand.
Hope will see someone who has the same feeling as I.
Let's keep posted for the issue.
2.0GH/13'3/1.25G RAM Mac OS X (10.4.7)
2.0GH/13'3/1.25G RAM Mac OS X (10.4.7)
2.0GH/13'3/1.25G RAM Mac OS X (10.4.7)
2.0GH/13'3/1.25G RAM Mac OS X (10.4.7)
2.0GH/13'3/1.25G RAM Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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Posts:
44
Registered:
Jun 2, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 4:58 AM
in response to: guykuo
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Excellent write up.!
Mini
Mac OS X (10.4)
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Posts:
87
From:
Bogota, Colombia
Registered:
Jun 4, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 5:21 AM
in response to: lcseds
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Excellent description.
I'm waiting for my logic board replacement. But to be completely sure the MacBook, any MacBook will not be suffering from the random shutdowns you will have to use it normally for at least a couple of months so if you own a new one and it has not happened to you, you may not be out of the woods just yet so monitor your MacBook closely. Many people have reported having the same problems after having the logic board replaced have apeared with a few weeks of use, so the logic board may not be the faulty part.
Due to the weird temperature related (low and/or high) problem this issue could probably be caused by a few faulty processors and the MacBooks suffering from it will have to be replaced for brand new ones at some point in any case.
Just keep posting, is the only way to get strong support from Apple and to know we're not alone.
Saludos,
Pedro
MacBook Mac OS X (10.4.7) ... I also own a 12" PowerBook G4
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Posts:
445
Registered:
Jan 26, 2005
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 6:50 AM
in response to: guykuo
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Thank you for the clear and concise writeup of the issue. Although you state that the issue occurs with either 10.4.6 or 10.4.7, do you know if the issue has ever occurred on a MB that has NOT been upgraded to 10.4.7 at one time or another, even if it is running 10.4.6 at the present time? In other words, if I have a new MB and leave it at 10.4.6, without ever upgrading, am I likely to see the issue? Or can this issue perhaps be tied to something that happens to the MB when it is upgraded, and which may become a permanent problem?
Powerbook 1.5/1GB/80GB/Dell 2005fpw
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
iMac G5 1.8/512MB/160GB, iPod Nano 4GB (Black)
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Posts:
1,412
From:
London
Registered:
Apr 2, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 7:08 AM
in response to: danny whittington
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Mine started doing it with 10.4.6 and continued into 10.4.7. It's an hardware issue, not software.
Nick
MacBook Black
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
2GHz, 2GB RAM, 100GB @ 7200RPM
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Posts:
296
Registered:
Aug 14, 2004
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 31, 2006 7:32 AM
in response to: Nick A
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I have had problems under 10.4.6 and .7
David
G5 2.0 / Macbook 13 2.0
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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Posts:
233
From:
DFW
Registered:
Jun 26, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Aug 17, 2006 5:24 AM
in response to: Nick A
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It very well could have been tied to some of the upgrades. I've been to lazy to check for myself mainly because the problem has not repeated itself for me since I did the following. I turned the power off, when turning the power on I held the button until the chimes came on, then I let the machine boot up. Once the machine was up I went into the power management settings and changed the settings to normal for power savngs on both battery and outlet power. I then rebooted, once back up I changed the power setings back to better savings for battery and performance for outlet and it has been running fine ever since and that was last weekend.
To me at least this means my problem was probably caused by some sort of corruption in the power management settings that must be controled by the OS. YMMV, but I wouldn't for a second think that this sudden rise of shutdown problems are all hardware related.
iMac 20" & MacBook 2GHz 2GB
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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26
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Aug 17, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Aug 17, 2006 12:17 PM
in response to: pauldy
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I turned the power
off, when turning the power on I held the button
until the chimes came on, then I let the machine boot
up. Once the machine was up I went into the power
management settings and changed the settings to
normal for power savngs on both battery and outlet
power. I then rebooted, once back up I changed the
power setings back to better savings for battery and
performance for outlet and it has been running fine
ever since and that was last weekend.
hi nick,
i tried what you proposed, and for the moment it works. but i am really not sure if it is not maybe linked to the fact how long the MB worked, so if it is already warm, or still completely cold. i will continue to play around a bit...
MacBook 1.83
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
1GB RAM 60Go
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Posts:
233
From:
DFW
Registered:
Jun 26, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Aug 17, 2006 4:42 PM
in response to: lerat
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It has been 100+ here for quite a few days in a row so this very well could be true. I can say after following those steps the unit is stable so even if its a temp fix at least it will let me use my machine until there is some sort of official fix from Apple.
iMac 20" & MacBook 2GHz 2GB
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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5
Registered:
Jul 21, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Sep 10, 2006 5:08 AM
in response to: lerat
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Does anyone from this thread has a macbook that totally shutdown and no longer restart?
My week 21 Blackbook started the RSD problem after almost a month of purchased (may 30) and since then i started to follow many discussions regarding this infamous RSD problem. i tried every single solution mentioned here like PRAM, PMU reset, reseating ram memory and hard disk etc. etc. and i end up by turning my macbook by holding down the power button for ten secs until loud beep came on, it works fine for my macbook without any shutdown, but yesterday night the 10 seconds power-on tricks no longer works, loud beep never came on after holding down the button for 10 secs, and the sleep light remain litted, hard drive is spinning normal so as the fan but the screen remain in total black...
I need help please.
Macbook 13" Black
Mac OS X (10.4.6)
Mac OS X 10.4.6 / 512RAM / 80GB
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Posts:
58
Registered:
Jul 19, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 8:05 AM
in response to: danny whittington
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Probably should also add the step of deauthorizing your machine from iTunes before turning it in for major service.
macbook
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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Posts:
111
Registered:
Jun 7, 2004
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Sep 2, 2006 11:21 AM
in response to: danny whittington
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like you, i did not upgrade from 10.4.6, and eventually experienced the problem 2 1/2 months after receiving my macbook. I upgraded to 10.4.7 and did firmware update and still had problem.
iMac G5 20 inch, Macbok 2.0 Ghz White, 40 GB iPod, A lonely G4 Cube...
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
and a dead G3 iBook (Dual USB)
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205
Registered:
May 20, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 8:52 AM
in response to: guykuo
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Excellent summary and suggestions. One other thing - some have reported that holding down the power button for a few seconds when starting up the machine seems to help prevent the shutdowns. I had four or five random shutdowns over the weekend (some when on battery, some on AC; some when cold, some when hot). However (knock on wood), I've have not had any so far this week since using the "hold the power button down" suggestion. I've run under some pretty heavy loads with no problem so far, and have been able to awake from sleep okay. (On the other hand, I've also had the machine plugged in and continuously on for the past couple days. The problems were happening for me at a time when I was shutting down and transporting more frequently. Perhaps it's the variations in temperature - heating up and cooling down - that causes the problem?)
MacBook MA472LL/A (Black, 2.0, 1 G RAM)
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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Posts:
111
Registered:
Jun 7, 2004
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Sep 3, 2006 12:02 PM
in response to: a2dox
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yes holding downt he power button for 10-20 seconds until it beeps seems to reliably prevent the shutdowns from happening for me now , for as long as i use the computer actively... but it always has the problem again immediatey after waking from sleep or after restarting. As thats not so "random" anymore maybe its a clue.
Also, someone else posted here that the hold the shutdown tactic forces your chip to work at max of 1 ghz instead of 2. Thats not the computer we paid for.
Menawhile, im not a techie, but if the chips are on the logic board, and the chips are not functioning properly at 2 ghz... then a logic board replacement, which is what apple is doing, seems to make perfect sense. sorry if this is an ignorant suggestion and feel free to (gently) correct me if im wrong. 
iMac G5 20 inch, Macbok 2.0 Ghz White, 40 GB iPod, A lonely G4 Cube...
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
and a dead G3 iBook (Dual USB)
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14
Registered:
Nov 21, 2005
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 28, 2006 9:00 AM
in response to: guykuo
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This morning my week 25 1.83 did the shutdown thing. Specifically it should have woken up by itself and played some music, but instead of the sweet sounds of ELO I was awoken by the Apple chime.
Apart from that it has been fine. I've run the yes command to try and tax it, but it works fine (seems to run very well actually). So it was the cold start that caused it in my case I would say.
I'm going to see if it happens again tomorrow, and keep an eye on it. In two weeks I am moving to Taiwan for a year, so hope it's ok (I guess I can get it repaired there, but it will be more bother).
Has anyone had any trouble dealing with Applecare when they were not the original purchaser of the Mac? I bought this one from my flatmate.
Macbook & Mac Mini 1.5 - late 2005
Mac OS X (10.4.6)
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89
Registered:
Jul 16, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 29, 2006 10:50 PM
in response to: guykuo
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Amazing write up on the issue!
One question- how old was your MB when the Apple store agreed to replace it?
MacBook
Mac OS X (10.4.6)
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58
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Jul 19, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 30, 2006 1:15 PM
in response to: Shauna Blair
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My MacBook was about 45 days old when it was replaced. At that time Apple was apparently still capturing units for analysis. So, replacement was probably not the norm at its age. On the other hand, replacing the unit outright dramatically improved and reinforced my confidence and happiness with Apple. It was the right thing to do after logic board replacement still didn't fix things.
The new MacBook runs cooler than the old one. Even with Parallels and several other operations running, the CPU temp only hovers around 73C. My original one, even after MLB replacement ran considerably hotter and frequently needed to throttle down CPU speed compared to the new unit.
My sudden shutdowns happened even with the machine cold. It's a perplexing fault whose real root has not been disclosed or fully explained. Thus far the new machine has been able to withstand multiple "yes" / cool down cycles without any problems. Even running two instances of yes, the new machine keeps pegged at 2.0 GHz almost continually. The old one throttled down on both of its motherboards.
Overall, the new MacBook has been a great machine and on average is much quieter and faster than my 12 inch PowerBook Aluminum.
It's a pity that so many other causes need to be excluded before one can actually say ones MacBook is indeed afflicted with the random sudden shutdown fault. The randomness also makes it easy to associate actions that didn't really make any difference as a prevention or cause.
BTW, holding down the power button until the loud beep reportedly locks the CPU down to 1 GHz. I haven't verified that report, but if it does do that and a fault is thermal related the reduced speed would help.
macbook
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
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89
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Jul 16, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 30, 2006 1:23 PM
in response to: guykuo
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 I am so sad to hear that the logic board replacement did not work. I am supposed to get my MacBook back tomorrow morning with a new logic board...I fear I am heading down the same road as you- but my MacBook will be almost 2 months old when I get it back. Do they ever replace ones that old?
MacBook
Mac OS X (10.4.6)
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7
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Jun 8, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 30, 2006 3:06 AM
in response to: guykuo
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Thanks for the excellent write up.
Just adding my voice to the random Macbook shutdown brigade.
Shame, because apart from the random shutdowns I love it. I'm overall disappointed with the stability though, not a patch on my Windows box, regardless of what the Apple marketing says.
Macbook
Mac OS X (10.4.7)
2gb RAM
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21
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Jun 10, 2006
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Re: Random, Sudden Shutdowns - A redux and other things to rule out first
Posted:
Jul 30, 2006 7:21 AM
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